Date: Sat Oct 04 14:42:47 1997
To: Frank Grose
From: Rob Weinberg
Subject: Re: Happy Rosh Hashana
At 10:03 AM 10/4/97 0500, you wrote:
Wow! A double barrel load of double 00 buckshot... and me without a flack vest! I guess I should be expecting apples when I shake the tree, huh?!?
Oops. ; ) Remember, I've had a few decades of practice, but I'm trying to refine my approach. Good analogy with the apples.
You say, “Failing to include someone because their religious beliefs differ is not much different than intentionally excluding them. Having a legislative Christian prayer breakfast isn't exactly an open invitation to people of my persuasion."
Are you actually not invited? Or is the invitation to such an event the objection? Or is it that they are being held at all?
I knew you'd ask that. Let's try it this way. In order to be a part of the group I'd need to participate. Otherwise, I'm an outsider. Outsiders may get in, but they're not really welcomed to participate unless they leave their own beliefs at the door. If, and I say if, deals are made or alliances formed on the basis of religious preference, or in the context of religious meetings, then I'm not "in." Being invited is a hollow gesture. "Hey," they say, "we don't intentionally exclude anyone, everyone's invited to attend. But you're a little bit *more* invited and welcomed if you already share our religious beliefs." I think the editorial on the last of the web pages touched on this idea.
Are you excluded, or do you decline? Could exclusion be out of respect for your religion?
No, I don't think it would be honest of them to suggest it's out of respect. That too would be very paternalistic, to suggest they're "excluding" because they assume I'd be uncomfortable there to begin with. Respect would be to keep religion out of the deals to begin with, and I cannot believe that deals are not made in those scenarios. It's not antipathy or animosity toward non-Christians, or even intentional, but it keeps them out of the loop nonetheless.
Now if you were an employee of mine and our group was invited to a barbeque (pork), I'd make sure you were invited but advised of the menu. If I were hosting, and I'd ensure there was food there that you would not find objectionable. I once had an Orthodox Jew trainee in my basic training company. With the help of a Jewish chaplain, we provided kosher food for him.
I love pork (and shellfish), but then I don't keep kosher. If I did, I think it would be inappropriate for me to ask you to go out of your way just for me. Although you probably wouldn't go wrong with a platter of fruits and vegetables. Now, the army example is a little different. Troops gotta' attend, and they gotta' eat. You have to make a accommodations there.
You say, “There are a lot of places you go to, that people wouldn't go out of their way to invite me to. And I can come and go in many places like that because I'm not that semitic looking and I've learned how to walk the walk and talk the talk.”
That saddens me. I'd like to hope that some of those actions, inexcusable as they may be, are because of their lack of knowledge of what is objectionable to a Jewish person, and attempt to avoid a possible embarrassing situation (or learning how to accommodate them properly).
Well, it's just a fact of life. And I was generalizing. I'd have an easier time walking into a black juke-joint with my guitar than you would, but I've made a few cowboys cry in redneck bars too. That's really what I was thinking.
I wanted to invite this Orthodox fellow out to lunch, but I didn't know anywhere kosher to go. I think he sensed that and informed me he ate in his office. He invited me there to meet with him.
I've had the same problem myself. There's a Jewish couple my wife and I have gotten friendly with. I'd like to invite them over, but they keep kosher in their home. Not having pork or seafood, not mixing meat and milk products in the same meal, would be easy enough. But the laws of kashruth can be pretty strict. You're supposed to use different sets of pots, pans, utensils, plates and flatware for cooking and serving milk and meat, and we're not equipped for that. Meat products must be ritually slaughtered to drain the blood, all sorts of things. But the important thing is that you're sensitive to the issue.
You should not have to "hide" your ethnicity, but I can understand trying to blend in with your associates.
I've never felt the need to hide it, but as you can tell from the articles, many do. I'm a strong person, and am proud of my ethnic heritage, but without being strong to begin with as I am, it can be tough on a lot of people.
Let me admit something to you. I am so non-sensitive (perhaps naive) regarding race, it never dawned on me that Rob "Weinberg" might be Jewish. I'm learning!
It must be a sign of the times. I take it for granted that everyone assumes or knows Weinberg is a Jewish name, but the last 1/2 dozen conversations about religion I've had with people, they've plead ignorance. Frankly, that's a good thing, that people aren't looking for labels.
I suppose "reality" is how you perceive it. Our perception is somewhat different here, however. Not one right and one wrong, just different.
That's my main point. If people would strive to understand that, there'd be a lot less conflict in the world.
First, I don't know if I am part of the "Christian right" I am a Christian, and I am conservative in my political views. I am pro life, and feel that homosexual activity is an abomination before God.
I try to be very cautious about labels. Although you probably identify with the "right" in many areas, I've hesitated to describe you as being a part of it.
I'd certainly be labeled by some as a right wing fundamentalist Christian whacko, but then....
Yup, the first thing I ever said about you was that you definitely aren't a "whacko." We disagree on a number of political issues, but you ain't a whacko.
I do believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God, and is Truth. As a Christian, I serve the same God as the Jew.
I think our gods share much in common, but I'm not sure yours is the same as that of the Jews. And I can't really speak for the Jews. It's safe to say that I'm not sure you and I share the same view of God though.
I do accept the deity of Jesus Christ. To me, the prophesies were so clear, it is amazing to me that the Jewish leadership at the time failed to recognize that He was their Messiah. The prophesy in Daniel 9:25 26 was fulfilled, to the day.
I think this is one of those topics we'd have to "agree to disagree" about. Obviously, a fundamental distinction between our religions is that Jews don't believe that Jesus was the messiah.
Okay, now it is time for your turn at tough love. You see, in Luke 19:41 44 we find the account of when Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem....
Ahem..... using "tough love" to convince me that Jesus is the messiah, is not turnabout or fair play of the tough love I gave you, which was in response to specific questions that might have called for some tough self-examination. So, I won't count that against you as a "responsive tough love." ; )
Paul wrote in Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."
Doesn't this passage contradict the idea that Jews are the chosen people? You and I can discuss this intellectually and amicably. But getting back to the earlier point, it's those who can't, who see it as their mission to convert the Jew that trouble starts with.
Short of me becoming a biblical scholar, I just don't know how well we'd be able to discuss this. (I'll work on it, I promise.) Preaching?! You?! Actually, you're not that bad. And I'm secure enough in what I believe that I'm not threatened by your sharing with me.
I hope that wasn't too tough.
No, not at all. But it strays somewhat from we were discussing, namely: how prevalent is anti-Semitism, and what to do about it.
Therefore, if one accepts that belief, it automatically excludes all their "supposed" paths to God, doesn't it.
So, what do we do?
Let me quickly add that, as a Christian, I would like to see everyone accept Christ as his Saviour. But I do not try to force that acceptance on anyone against their will. Such is futile.
And let me add that it's Christians like you that give Christianity a GOOD name.
Counselor, I'll have to object to your use of the word "automatically" as though this were an absolute with everyone. I will concede that it is far to frequently true.
Touche'. Okay, instead of "automatically builds," let's say "can lead to." Your concession is the starting point though of where to find the answer to what to do about the "attitude" question.
I read with sadness the clippings you put on your site for me. Thank you for sharing them. Religion is something that should be used neither as a method nor object or ridicule. Kids are really mean spirited.
Kids are. And they learn right and wrong at home and in the school. Equating religion with a handicap or other physical attribute has a sort of surface appeal in that they're both things that kids are born with perhaps. Both are wrong. And "kids will be kids," is not the answer.
More on that when I respond with my defense of Judge Moore.
O.K., but I'll expect you to work in responses to what we're talking about here.
You say, “And how does anti-Semitism start? With a person carrying a Bible under his arm offering to lead the way in the name of God. Every single time.”
History has proven you more right than not, but lest you think Jews are the only ones, look at N. Ireland, and many other countries around the world. The twentieth century has been pretty rough on Christians elsewhere as well.
My point precisely. Jews don't have the market cornered on being the objects of religious persecution or discrimination. We need to learn from that though and apply those lessons universally. Look at Israel and the Palestinian issue. Is it right that now that Israel has control and is in the majority the Palestinians should be treated as second class citizens? I don't think so, and I'm very troubled by the militant Jews in Israel who insist on expanding their territory. I think it's terrible that the Jews in Israel, who have historically suffered so much at the hands of others cannot find a way to accommodate the Palestinians. They are guilty of doing unto others what they would not wish would be done unto them, and yet they (perhaps) claims some moral superiority or right of entitlement to push the Palestinians out of the way. They've learned nothing from history.
I must pause here to ask another (perhaps dumb) question. When you say you are Jewish, are you speaking of your religion or your ancestry? Tell me, could your wife become "Jewish?" Could you become a Christian? If someone says, "I'm Jewish." what am I supposed to understand from that. I was surprised to find that (many) Jews consider all Gentiles to be Christian. We aren't. When I say I am a Christian, I am speaking of my relationship with God ('Elohiym), saying nothing at all about my ancestral roots or nationality.
Not a dumb question. There are no dumb questions. In fact, some very good questions. For me, when I say Jewish, it's really more a matter of ancestry than religion. I am very proud of the cultural heritage I have, but it's not a very strong "religious" affiliation. You think YOU preach? You should see the Jews at temple eyeing me as another prospective member. My personal relationship with God is a lot less formal than going to temple and that kind of thing.
Bar Mitzvah translates to "son of the commandments." When I was preparing for my bar mitzvah I toyed, as all rebellious pre-teens do I suppose, with not going through with it. I'm glad I did for one main reason. In temple or at certain Jewish events, certain prayers can only be said if there is a "minyan," which is ten Jews who are bar mitzvah. This is particularly important for the "Kaddish," the prayer for the dead. It is important to me that wherever I go, if asked, I can be one of a "minyan," if needed. That is the cultural affinity I have with Judaism.
Can my wife become Jewish? Yes. Although it would take a certain amount of study, kind of like a Jewish version of a Catholic catechism, I suppose. Recall, ours is not a proselytizing religion, and the rabbi would want to make sure she were committed to it. It's not like getting baptized and saying she accepts Jesus as her savior. She toyed with the idea when we first met, certainly not because I wanted her to. (They say there's nothing worse than a reformed smoker or a converted Jew.) But I think it held some fantasy attraction for her, even before we met. She's still very interested in Jewish things, but more because it's always interested HER, not because of me. So when opportunities present themselves, like to learn Hebrew or study Talmud, or go to a service, we go.
Could I become a Christian? Not in this lifetime. ; ) As a general matter I "could." Jews become Christians by doing whatever is required, baptism, catechism, whatever. Would I though? Never say never, but no. One of the things I like about Judaism is the sense of a direct connection with God, no triumvirate, no priests or preachers. I know you probably share that sense too, and that's generalizing. But formalized religion has never been my thing or my wife's. Nevertheless, we consider ourselves very spiritual without the trappings or baggage of someone else telling us how we're supposed to interact with God.
You say, “Tough Love Time, Part II: All of that is well and good. Now, Friend, you brought this up, so I'm going to invite you to examine those beliefs ….”
Not a problem. By now I have my flack vest and helmet on! I hope you took no offense at anything I said. If so, I apologize. I meant no offense, rather speaking from my heart. There was no intent to ingratiate either.
No volleys were directed at you personally, and I took no offense. They were good questions and I was trying to make some points that I thought would be new for you and perhaps difficult to digest. Certainly no need to apologize. We're past that. And I wasn't taking it as being ingratiating either. Really, just an awkward sort of way of encouraging you to look at something you've taken for granted in a new way.
When I was in high school I had a really cool teacher, not a racist bone in her body. We were talking about race relations or something and she shared this story: The teacher was white and had a black friend. They went to a party of mostly whites, a few blacks. When they entered, my teacher pointed to a black guest and asked her friend who that was. Her friend said, "How am I supposed to know? Do you know all the white people here just because they're white?" The story always serves to remind me that no matter how "liberal" or un-race-conscious I think I am, I've still got far to go. So, when I ask you "Why do you love Jews," I'm inviting you, not to justify that statement to me, but to examine why you do for your own understanding, what it really means to you.
The Jews are God's chosen people whether we like it or not. The Bible says that, not me. Deu 7:6 "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth."
See, I get confused here. If we're the chosen people already, why are people trying to converts us? Why isn't that a contradiction? If Paul says we ain't got it right no more, then we're no longer chosen, no? Does the N.T. supercede the old where there is a conflict?
It is a fact, the world has been blessed by the intellect, and business savvy of the Jews.
Repeat after me, "My Jewish friend says I shouldn't say things like that..." Yes, Jews have made their share of contributions, yes, as a generality, they prize education for its own sake. But it is a generality nonetheless, and even good intentioned generalities wind up being twisted by those who would pervert them to their own ends.
Again, what do you love about us? What do you know about us? What is there to love?
I love your dedication to what you believe. I admire the dedication of the Orthodox who follow so carefully the Law. I love to study the Jews because in doing so, I learn more of the context of the scriptures.
Those are good things as far as generalities go, but I'd have to say "love" is a bit strong. Perhaps it is more apropos to say there is much to be learned from them as a people, that you have compassion for how they have suffered.
If God loves you enough to sacrifice his son for you (and me), who am I not to love you? Sorry, I couldn't resist that. After all, it is tough love time.
I don't consider that a cheap shot. Rather I interpret it as God commands you to love all, regardless of whether they believe as you do. Now, THAT is what makes you a Christian in the best sense of the word.
Two questions: if so, why is it necessary for the Jews to accept Christ if we've already got a ticket in? (Ooooh, I'm afraid to get you started on that, try and keep it short, please. Our discussions will be more rewarding for both of us once I've had a chance to read it all in context first.)
The second question is a little more fundamental to the religious philosophies we perhaps disagree about. What kind of God is it that would exclude from heaven someone who doesn't accept Christ as his personal savior, yet nonetheless adheres in every other significant way to his teachings?
“The history of every overt act of anti-Semitism begins with the answer ‘no.’ And ‘no’ is the message the Christian right teaches.
Even in the days of Christ, it was called "The Way." We wouldn't be Christian if we didn't believe that. But to connote anti-Semitism with Christianity is using a very broad brush (Remember, all Chinese like rice.), and rather unfair to those of us that it doesn't fit. Now I'm being persecuted! Sorry, bad joke.
AHA! So, you ARE a part of the "Christian right!" : 0
The bad joke aside ; ) I think you realize that I wasn't saying that all Christian thinking will result in anti-Semitism. Only that those who history records as persecuting the Jews or other non believers all had their start by saying, unlike you, that theirs is the ONLY WAY for everybody. There are obviously too many examples of Christians who have kept true to the path, and become great leaders, that did not result in persecution.
I suppose all our attitudes need some adjustment, and you've helped me with mine. If sharing my faith is considered proselytizing, I guess it would be rather difficult, because I am excited about it.
Yeah, that's the hard part. Why I say there are no easy answers. If there were more Christians like you, who shared their faith without ramming it down someone else's throat, it'd be OK. Man naturally tends toward excesses in whatever he does, and it's those who don't know where to draw the line that cause the problem.
I can't do Moore right now!
You may have to. ; ) Bear in mind too as you're formulating your "defense" that I've read his arguments, and those of the amicus curiae who support his position. None of them have been able to answer the questions I pose to you.
But I have to ask, what is so offensive about hearing someone pray to a god you don't happen to believe in. I used to go to Buddhist temples without getting offended. Were you to invite me to attend a synagogue or seder with you, I'd be delighted.
There's nothing wrong with it. I encourage you to visit a temple or synagogue, and would take you myself in a heartbeat if I were a member anywhere. If you know ANYONE, ask them to take you. If not, call the temple in Huntsville and ask if it'd be alright for you to attend and observe. I'd be surprised if there were any reservations on their part.
I'm not offended at the way God is prayed to when I attend a Catholic service or an Episcopal wedding or a Baptist funeral. But I am going voluntarily into your (or their) place of worship. If I cannot respect that, I have no place being there, because it's not my place to come into your place of worship and criticize you or tell you that what you're doing is not the way.
Hearing people pray in OUR communal space though is another matter. You and I don't share the same view of God or, more importantly, what God expects of us. Remember my hypothetical of the black belt county commission that turned every public event in the county into a Moslem ceremony? Strip away everything you know about what actually is, and imagine that you lived in that county, as a good Christian. And the questions becomes, how do you feel? An outsider perhaps in your own community, that you pay taxes to, or may be called to defend? How can you defend something so anathema to your own beliefs? I realize this is a hard concept to grapple with, because you're so used to the way things are, and the injury I speak of may therefore be de minimus to you.
There's a movie I've not seen that has an interesting premise called "White Man's Burden." John Travolta and (I think) Harry Belafonte. The premise is that white is black and black is white. Travolta kidnaps Belafonte and shows him what life is really like on the "other side." There's an old "Twilight Zone" episode about a former SS officer who dreams he's woken up in a concentration camp, where the Jews are the guards. It ends when he realizes he's not dreaming, but in hell. That's why my example of the blackbelt county is the best one I can come up with. If you can REALLY imagine what it would be like to live there, you'd understand what it is to walk a mile in my shoes, and you might understand and truly appreciate the answer to the question you pose.
I don't like to hear cursing and vulgar language, that the "non-Christian left" showers us with. Wow the First Amendment is a two edged sword, isn't it?
Yes, it is. That's why as offensive as it is for the nazis to march in the predominantly Jewish section of Skokie, Illinios, or the KKK marching down Dexter Avenue past the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church or past the Southern Poverty Law Center is protected, and I must accept it.
Right, Friend. Better via email than over the dinner table for subjects like this, huh? I enjoy our exchanges very much. You are not the only one (but the only Jew) that I dialogue with on scriptural topics. None of us know it all... yet!
I enjoy them too. Hmmm.... we've GOT to find you some more Jews to converse with. ; ) I'd hate to think I'm answering for all of us.
All Rights Reserved
0 comments:
Post a Comment