Date: Mon, 06 Oct 1997 16:49:10
To: Rob Weinberg
From: Frank Grose
Subject: Re: HRH Chapter 2
But formalized religion has never been my thing or my wife's. Nevertheless, we consider ourselves very spiritual....
"Religion" is man's attempt to reconcile himself to God. Works won't get it. It takes a relationship. Did I say that already?
“The Jews are God's chosen people whether we like it or not. The Bible says that, not me. Deu 7:6 ‘For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.’ ”
See, I get confused here. If we're the chosen people already, why are people trying to converts us? Why isn't that a contradiction? If Paul says we ain't got it right no more, then we're no longer chosen, no? Does the N.T. supercede the old where there is a conflict?
What happens when Michael Jordon commits too many fouls? He gets put on the sideline (punished). The Israelites were not always an obedient people. They fell into idiolatry periodically. Because they are God's _hosen, (See I'm learning!) He keeps dealing with them, and trying to get them to be obedient. Despite all the great exploits of Moses, when God told him to "speak to" the rock, he "smote" it as before. As a result, he didn't go into Cannan. God is loving, but he is also just. If you find an apparent conflict between the OT and the NT, consider it an opportunity to learn, because you are missing some information somewhere. I say again, studied methodically, the Bible will prove its authenticity. If you have a real interest here (albeit academic), I'll try to help. But it will be as I understand and believe it (with my Christian bias).
Repeat after me, "My Jewish friend says I shouldn't say things like that..." Yes, Jews have made their share of contributions, yes, as a generality, they prize education for its own sake.
Okay, I actually said it three times. I'll try to refrain, unless it is absolutely essential for the discussion. Okay? What I really understood from your response to this and other similar comments is, "We don't WANT to be considered "_hosen" and don't want anyone reminding us of that fact." I'll comply.
I don't consider that a cheap shot. Rather I interpret it as God commands you to love all, regardless of whether they believe as you do. Now, THAT is what makes you a Christian in the best sense of the word.
I'll take that as a compliment, although "loving people" is not what MAKES me Christian. It is only an attribute. Just for your information, "Christian" is a wildly used term, and there are times I've been reluctant to wear that badge because it has been so abused by misguided people. Last night, our pastor was telling of a "street preacher" who in his red light mini sermon told him he was going to Hell. I recall a post chaplain in Korea who was the biggest drunk in the club. He was Catholic, but certainly not all Protestants are tee totalers.
Hebrews 9:19 27, especially verse 22.
Does this passage means that Christ has already died for the sins of Jews, so it's just an immutable "given" as concerns Jews that we'll be there?
Yes, Christ died for your sins and mine (yesterday's sins, today's sins, and tomorrow's sins), the key is accepting that sacrifice. That is on a personal level. Refer to 1 Corinthians 15:1 4 for the essentials of the Gospel. Note that the word "Scriptures" therein refers to the OT. The scriptures which foretold the coming of Christ (starting with Genesis 3:15) were fulfilled. In your Bible study, concentrate on this issue. If the book gives multiple forecasts of what will occur, and they do occur precisely as predicted, it should cause one to give serious consideration to the possibility that it may be from God. The second part of the your question requires a more deliberate study of OT prophets, like Zechariah (Chapter 12:10 is a good verse), and of the Revelation. The "remnant" will be saved through the Tribulation, but most won't be, if I understand the Bible correctly.
What kind of God is it that would exclude from heaven someone who doesn't accept Christ as his personal savior, yet nonetheless adheres in every other significant way to his teachings?
To try to keep it short, suffice it to say, a JUST God. He has provided a way of escape. If that way is rejected, why should He provide alternate ways. The way I read it, there is no Plan B. (I'm not being anti-Semitic or taking any moral high ground here. I'm only sharing what I believe.) A just judge would have to sentence his own son if he broke the law wouldn't he. God is not willing that any should perish. He's gone to great lengths to prove it and provide a way to escape eternal punishment.
The history of every overt act of anti-Semitism begins with the answer "no." And "no" is the message the Christian right teaches.
Don't just blame it on Christians. I think it was God's idea. What would have happened in a Hebrew house in Egypt on the night of the first Passover, had the blood not been applied to the lentil and doorposts? No Plan B there either! (Just an aside, when the hyssop was dipped into the bason (trench at the threshold) and struck upon the doorposts, they were unknowingly making a sign of the cross.) Selah. Think about it.
AHA! So, you ARE a part of the "Christian right!" : 0
I was afraid you’d get to that point sooner or later. If I fit YOUR Christian right mold, what can I do? But, I am NOT your enemy! ; ) (Honestly, your questions just scream for the answers I've been giving.) Hmmmh!!! I wonder if that is by design?? You know how lawyers are reputed for getting people to say the things they want them to say.
If there were more Christians like you, who shared their faith without ramming it down someone else's throat, it'd be OK.
Thanks again. That is saying much of someone on the "Christian right." : )
I enjoy our contest of words and ideas! But, hey, I'm at a disadvantage. This is your job!
Hearing people pray in OUR communal space though is another matter.
So the First Amendment only applies in ones private place or in a religious institution??? Come on now!!! Perhaps you need to explain "prohibit the free exercise thereof" to me.
You and I don't share the same view of God or, more importantly, what God expects of us.
Well, I've told you who mine is. Who is yours?
Remember my hypothetical of the black belt county commission that turned every public event in the county into a Moslem ceremony? Strip away everything you know about what actually is, and imagine that you lived in that county, as a good Christian. And the questions becomes, how do you feel?
If the elected Commission were Moslem, and they had a prayer before meetings, I would respect that. I'd prefer they be Christian, praying to the God I believed in, but I wouldn't have a problem with it. A Jewish prayer would be far more acceptable to me. A Satanist prayer would be very
difficult to handle, however.
If you can REALLY imagine what it would be like to live there, you'd understand what it is to walk a mile in my shoes, and you might understand and truly appreciate the answer to the question you pose.
A very ponderable point. While I could accommodate the situation of which you refer hypothetically, I know there are plenty of others who couldn't or wouldn't be inclined to. In that regard, you are right.
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